Lingual retainers - annoying?

[shinysmile]

Hi,

I've had my braces off 5 years ago, and for the first two years I wore Essix retainers. Then, my orthodontist suggested that I wore lingual retainers. I said ok without giving much thought. I hate them from the very first day. Whenever I go to my orthodontist, I tell him to take them off but he refuses and somehow convinces me that if I have them removed, my teeth will lose their shape. Today, I went there again and got an appointment to take them off after trying hard. He kept refusing to do it, even told me to go and have another doctor to do it! (Is it ethical at all?) I told him I take the whole responsibility. He said he never took lingual braces off before. Does this mean he's afraid he can't do it and mess with my teeth? Is removing lingual retainers a difficult job?

Reasons why I hate the lingual retainers:

1. They're so not hygienic. I brush my teeth all the time but never feel them as clean as I would like them to be.

2. Food gets stuck all the time. Sometimes it stays there for two days and no matter what I do I can't remove the food. It gives me bad breath.

3. I noticed in some places there's plaque - because of the poor hygiene.

4. I miss eating apple without having to use a knife!!!

I need your opinion and experience with lingual retainers. Are there better solutions? Will my teeth really lose their shape if I have them taken off? Is there a way to improve oral hygiene? Can I go back to the Essix retainers?

PS: I'm 30 years old.

[Sunny]

Hi Shiny, it's a shame you don't like your bonded retainer, but I think you have the right to have it removed if you want to, as long as you're aware of the disadvantages.

We use bonded retainers whenever possible, due to there ability to keep teeth aligned and stable without relying on patients to be compliant with wearing their removable retainers. They are also great for patients who may have bone loss or root reabsorption.

A bonded retainer should be easy to remove ... as really it's just a piece of wire bonded behind the teeth to keep them aligned.

You shouldn't have a problem with keeping your teeth clean or keeping food out of your bonded retainer. You do need to be careful when chewing/biting hard food with the teeth that are bonded, but usually it's only four or six teeth. Flossing those teeth also takes a little more work, but heaps less than when a person had braces.

Please make sure you have regular teeth cleanings (usually yearly or six monthly), as you need to have the plaque removed and improve your brushing if you're not able to keep your that area clean.

Good luck with having your bonded retainer removed and wearing your retainers for life!

[shinysmile]

Hi, I'm back - without my lingual retainers finally.

I feel great without them. Today I flossed for the first time in 3 years and I already paid a visit to my periodontologist to have the tartar and the plaque removed. I feel lighter!

As a patient, I was totally dissatisfied with my lingual retainers from day 1. And what made me even more upset was my ortho's attitude. The thing is, I think orthodontists should discuss the pros and cons of these retainers with their patients without trying to enforce them to wear them for life. Mine didn't tell me I'd have such oral hygiene and gum problems. He just told me it's the best thing, so I trusted him. They might be the best for retaining the straight teeth but DEFINITELY they're not so good in other respects. Personally, I'd rather have crooked teeth than unhealthy ones.

Again, I think orthodontists should be careful when advising their patients to wear lingual retainers. Clearly, there must be better solutions out there for patients who care more for their dental health than the shape of their teeth.

As an ex-lingual retainer wearer: I DEFINITELY don't recommend anybody to get them!

[Sunny]

Great that it's worked out well for you Shiny!

So far we've never had to remove a bonded retainer from any of our patients and they report that they love them. They love not having to worry about retainers and knowing that their teeth will remain as straight as the day the bonded retainer was put on.

We do spend time with each patient showing them the care necessary, but it's minor compared to wearing braces.

One group of patients who don't suit bonded retainers are those who mouths make excess acids that cause plaque. We all have this happening, and it moves down to the back of our lower teeth, but a few people have a problem in this area and without extra hygiene they can have problems.

I still am confident that bonded retainers are the best for people, who have good oral hygiene.

Enjoy your lifetime of retainer wear!

[Zach2k]

Great that it's worked out well for you Shiny!

So far we've never had to remove a bonded retainer from any of our patients and they report that they love them. They love not having to worry about retainers and knowing that their teeth will remain as straight as the day the bonded retainer was put on.

We do spend time with each patient showing them the care necessary, but it's minor compared to wearing braces.

One group of patients who don't suit bonded retainers are those who mouths make excess acids that cause plaque. We all have this happening, and it moves down to the back of our lower teeth, but a few people have a problem in this area and without extra hygiene they can have problems.

I still am confident that bonded retainers are the best for people, who have good oral hygiene.

Enjoy your lifetime of retainer wear!

I have some questions wrt to permanent retainers if you dont mind (as you seem to know quite a lot about them) or to anyone who can answer:

1. Are permanent retainers actually...permanent? I'm sure I read somewhere a while ago that over time, the tongue can push everything outwards. I've just had invisalign mainly to close the gap between the front two teeth, which it just about has done now, I dont want it to reappear a few years down the line.

2. Probably my biggest concern - what if the wire snaps? How do you prevent relapse? My teeth are such that they relapse within hours. Basically by the time I get back to my dentist (assuming I'm not abroad or its not the weekend) there will already be gaps. Will my dentist then have to take the whole thing off, put invisaligns back on, then put the retainer on again once the teeth are 'restraightened'?

Thanks for answers to everyone.

[Phantom Muse]

Zach,

I am not to the retainer phase yet, but I was talking to two friends yesterday who have had lingual retainers for a number of years. They both have had issues with these retainers. One had hers break in multiple places while she was spending a semester overseas, but fortunately, she had no relapse. This was the second time this happened to her. She blames the most recent problem on a baguette in Paris...

The other friend's lingual retainer became loose soon after getting her braces off. She was unaware that it was not secured and she had a rather rapid relapse as a result. The problem was fixed with a retainer, but she is still always quite nervous about this - even years later.

In all, I suspect these retainers work well for many people, but I also think you still have to be diligent about them forever - as you would a removable retainer.

Is there a reason you don't want to use your Invisalign tray as a retainer? From my understanding, after teeth have "settled" retainer wear is diminished to nighttime only and then even less thereafter.

Sunny, do some people with bonded retainers also wear a plastic retainer at nighttime?

Hope this helps!

[Zach2k]

Zach,

I am not to the retainer phase yet, but I was talking to two friends yesterday who have had lingual retainers for a number of years. They both have had issues with these retainers. One had hers break in multiple places while she was spending a semester overseas, but fortunately, she had no relapse. This was the second time this happened to her. She blames the most recent problem on a baguette in Paris...

The other friend's lingual retainer became loose soon after getting her braces off. She was unaware that it was not secured and she had a rather rapid relapse as a result. The problem was fixed with a retainer, but she is still always quite nervous about this - even years later.

In all, I suspect these retainers work well for many people, but I also think you still have to be diligent about them forever - as you would a removable retainer.

Is there a reason you don't want to use your Invisalign tray as a retainer? From my understanding, after teeth have "settled" retainer wear is diminished to nighttime only and then even less thereafter.

Sunny, do some people with bonded retainers also wear a plastic retainer at nighttime?

Hope this helps!

Hey Phantom,

Thanks for your reply. I'm just at the end of my invisalign treatment and was mulling over the pros and cons of both. I'm 27, and just the thought of putting in retainers every night for the rest of my life, when I have kids and family etc. I'd rather just wear a permanent one and forget about it even if it means a little more cleaning!

I wasnt aware that I could use my final invisalign tray as a retainer. I really didnt think they're durable enough. After a few weeks they seem all scratched up and do start to smell a bit regardless of how much you clean them I find (I hope thats just not me :s) .

Also with an invisalign/essix type retainer it surely cant last for many years can it?

With your second friend you said her teeth was fixed after relapse 'with a retainer'..what exactly do you mean by that? She had a removable one put in after the permanent one broke?

The thought of thinking twice before biting into anything is a big negative with regards to permanent retainers I feel.

[Phantom Muse]

Zach,

I am not sure how long an Invisalign tray will last as a nightly retainer; my ortho is hoping for about one year. After that point he thinks I may only need to wear a retainer a few nights a week anyway, so I don't think a removable one will be too much of an intrusion for me.

I am not sure how often removable retainers (Essix or Hawley) have to be replaced. I have heard some say every few years, but I suspect that also varies. It seems as if everyone has different experiences with their durability. Invisalign offers the Vivera retainer that you switch out every three months or so, I think. I am not certain that is necessary, but I plan to look into it in the next month or so as part of my decision-making process.

My friend had to wear an Invisalign/Essix-type retainer that moved the tooth back into alignment. I know that can also be done with a Hawley retainer, but she preferred the plastic. She is back to a permanent retainer now, but she worries about it and has her dentist check it carefully every six months to be certain it is properly secured.

I think whichever way you go with retainers, there are pros and cons. For me, I hope to be able to stick with a removable, because at some point (when my teeth have stabilized) I'll only be dealing with the retainer for a small portion of my day. I am happy with that, and can avoid the extra cleaning required for the lingual retainer.

Congrats on coming to the end of your treatment!!! How long have you worn the trays, and did you have refinements?

[Sunny]

Phantom you'll still need upper and lower retainers with bonded retainers ... the main advantage is that the bonded retainer doesn't require any discipline by you to wear it, and as long as you look after it, it's there to keep your teeth where they were the day your braces came off or your invisalign treatment finished. Removable retainers still need to be worn at night.

We ask our patients to check their bonded retainers once a week, as part of their oral hygiene routine. They also know they're at risk of 'knocking' it off, if they bite something hard with their front teeth, but they can bit hard food with their side teeth.

Zach there's no such thing as a permanent retainer, this is about finding retainers that are best for you, your teeth and to prevent relapse. Some people have keep their bonded retainers for only a short time, like a year or less ... long enough to make sure the teeth are well settled, so that they can be more comfortable with wearing their removable retainers only three or founr nights a week.

Are permanent retainers actually...permanent? I'm sure I read somewhere a while ago that over time, the tongue can push everything outwards. I've just had invisalign mainly to close the gap between the front two teeth, which it just about has done now, I dont want it to reappear a few years down the line.

The tongue will move your teeth if you have an untreated tongue thrust. A good ortho will have identified this before your treatment started and made sure it was addressed during your treatment. If you have a untreated tongue thrust, nothing will prevent it from ruin any orthodontic treatment.

Bonded retainers are excellent for holding gaps closed ... and this is one of the reasons I'll be having them.

2. Probably my biggest concern - what if the wire snaps? How do you prevent relapse? My teeth are such that they relapse within hours. Basically by the time I get back to my dentist (assuming I'm not abroad or its not the weekend) there will already be gaps. Will my dentist then have to take the whole thing off, put invisaligns back on, then put the retainer on again once the teeth are 'restraightened'?

If the wire snaps or some of the bonding comes off, you need to go back to your ortho and have it rebonded ... the same as you would if anything happens to your removable retainers.

If your teeth continue to relapse that easily, then you must have bone issues. When teeth are loose, it's easy for them to move, but once the bone has reformed around your teeth, this won't happen so easily. If your teeth have been moved back and fourth a lot, or you have bone loss issues, then there can be permanent issues. Bonded retainers are sometimes needed for people who have bone loss, as the bonded retainers help to keep the teeth without the relying fully on the bone.

If your bonded retainer comes loose, you have removal retainers to wear, plus you have to hope that your bone will hold your teeth steady, or there maybe nothing that will work for you. Please talk to an orthodontist about this, as it's not healthy... remember I'm meaning about when your teeth have settled.

Zach if you read a few more forums on this board, hopefully you'll find some great posts by Dr Tam. I think he's still wearing his last invisalign tray as a night time retainer ... and I think (not sure) that it's been for about a year, without any relapse!

[Phantom Muse]

Sunny,

I have never known anyone to wear both a lingual retainer and then also a removable retainer at night. I know you have mentioned it on the forum before, so I am curious how many others have both. This is an interesting consideration. My ortho does not suggest it and neither does my daughter's ortho...

Thanks, as always, for the info, Sunny!

[coconut]

Phantom Muse, I have bonded retainers on both arches (front 6) and also wear the plastic tray type retainers twice a week at night. When I had the bonded retainers placed, my ortho took impressions for my plastic retainers which have an indentation where the lingual wire is. They are quite easy to insert and remove and I've never had any problems with wires dislodging, etc.

I was advised that my bonded retainers could stay there for as long as I wanted them i.e. forever. More than two years on and there are no problems. Ditto the removable retainers, although they are a bit scratched now what with having been brushed clean, etc. But they still function fine.

I've also not had any problem biting into hard food e.g. corn on the cob, apples, carrots etc.

The only criticisms I have of bonded retainers are that it takes a little more effort to floss and occasionally food particles do get stuck between the wire and teeth.

[Phantom Muse]

I find this discussion quite interesting...

I guess I was under the impression that the lingual retainer alone would be fine as so many people I know have only that type of retainer. Are there certain circumstances when only the lingual is suggested and others where both are needed? I know lingual are especially good for gaps that have been closed, but other than that I don't have any idea!

[coconut]

The bonded retainers are only applied to the front teeth. In my own case, without retention of some sort for the rest of my teeth, they would drift into other positions. I know this because every time I put my removable retainers in, they are a little tight.

[Sunny]

The bonded retainer can only retaine the teeth it's bonded to ... which in most cases is either four or six of one or both arches. The rest of the teeth still need to be retained and this is done by using removable retainers.

Great that your ortho is taking the right approach Coconut, as it would be massive shame to risk the teeth that aren't being held by the bonded retainer. Plus I like the idea that if the bonded retainer(s) should become loose, you still have your removable ones to rely on till you can get it rebonded.

[Zach2k]

Zach,

I am not sure how long an Invisalign tray will last as a nightly retainer; my ortho is hoping for about one year. After that point he thinks I may only need to wear a retainer a few nights a week anyway, so I don't think a removable one will be too much of an intrusion for me.

I am not sure how often removable retainers (Essix or Hawley) have to be replaced. I have heard some say every few years, but I suspect that also varies. It seems as if everyone has different experiences with their durability. Invisalign offers the Vivera retainer that you switch out every three months or so, I think. I am not certain that is necessary, but I plan to look into it in the next month or so as part of my decision-making process.

My friend had to wear an Invisalign/Essix-type retainer that moved the tooth back into alignment. I know that can also be done with a Hawley retainer, but she preferred the plastic. She is back to a permanent retainer now, but she worries about it and has her dentist check it carefully every six months to be certain it is properly secured.

I think whichever way you go with retainers, there are pros and cons. For me, I hope to be able to stick with a removable, because at some point (when my teeth have stabilized) I'll only be dealing with the retainer for a small portion of my day. I am happy with that, and can avoid the extra cleaning required for the lingual retainer.

Congrats on coming to the end of your treatment!!! How long have you worn the trays, and did you have refinements?

Yeah I'm thinking I really dont want that constant tension of my retainer breaking.

My invisalign was meant to last 6 months...its taken 18months! But it hasnt really bothered me, I've gotten used to wearing them all the time and enjoyed the feeling of my teeth being straightened.

[Zach2k]

Phantom you'll still need upper and lower retainers with bonded retainers ... the main advantage is that the bonded retainer doesn't require any discipline by you to wear it, and as long as you look after it, it's there to keep your teeth where they were the day your braces came off or your invisalign treatment finished. Removable retainers still need to be worn at night.

We ask our patients to check their bonded retainers once a week, as part of their oral hygiene routine. They also know they're at risk of 'knocking' it off, if they bite something hard with their front teeth, but they can bit hard food with their side teeth.

Zach there's no such thing as a permanent retainer, this is about finding retainers that are best for you, your teeth and to prevent relapse. Some people have keep their bonded retainers for only a short time, like a year or less ... long enough to make sure the teeth are well settled, so that they can be more comfortable with wearing their removable retainers only three or founr nights a week.
The tongue will move your teeth if you have an untreated tongue thrust. A good ortho will have identified this before your treatment started and made sure it was addressed during your treatment. If you have a untreated tongue thrust, nothing will prevent it from ruin any orthodontic treatment.

Bonded retainers are excellent for holding gaps closed ... and this is one of the reasons I'll be having them.
If the wire snaps or some of the bonding comes off, you need to go back to your ortho and have it rebonded ... the same as you would if anything happens to your removable retainers.

If your teeth continue to relapse that easily, then you must have bone issues. When teeth are loose, it's easy for them to move, but once the bone has reformed around your teeth, this won't happen so easily. If your teeth have been moved back and fourth a lot, or you have bone loss issues, then there can be permanent issues. Bonded retainers are sometimes needed for people who have bone loss, as the bonded retainers help to keep the teeth without the relying fully on the bone.

If your bonded retainer comes loose, you have removal retainers to wear, plus you have to hope that your bone will hold your teeth steady, or there maybe nothing that will work for you. Please talk to an orthodontist about this, as it's not healthy... remember I'm meaning about when your teeth have settled.

Zach if you read a few more forums on this board, hopefully you'll find some great posts by Dr Tam. I think he's still wearing his last invisalign tray as a night time retainer ... and I think (not sure) that it's been for about a year, without any relapse!

Hi, thanks for your reply. Yeah I saw Dr Tam's post, you're rigth he said its been about a year.

Well my relapse is that quick unfortunately. My orthodondist didnt think much of it except to point out some lucky people have very little relapse whilst others like me have quite a rapid relapse. The gap between my front two teeth reappear if I dont wear my invisalign for 6+ hours and I've been on this last tray for 6 weeks so far as opposed to the normal two.

If I were to get a permanent retainer (by which I mean one bonded to the back of the teeth), I dread to think what would happen if I break it in the evening or even worse on a weekend or on holiday. Sounds like from Phantom's friend's experience above, she had to have another retainer made and then the bonded retainer reattached, quite a messy process by the sounds of things.

I guess the point I was trying to make earlier with regards to a key difference between a bonded retainer and a removable retainer such as Vivera, is that the 'program' or 'electronic template' to make the removable one is always stored somewhere (I'm guessing) and should someone break or lose their removable retainer all the orthodondist has to do is reorder another 'mould' to be made. So even if there is some relapse the retainer should readjust as it will be the same as the previous one or with patients on Invisalign like me, same as their last tray.

Whereas with a bonded retainer, if there is a breakage, you're just praying it happens at a convienient time and that teeth doesnt relapse by the time the retainers are repaired.

I hope the above makes sense! And I have to say I am speculating as to whether there are 'electronic templates' for removable plastic retainers, but from my experience of seeing how the whole Invisalign system operates I'm guessing there is.

[Zach2k]

The bonded retainer can only retaine the teeth it's bonded to ... which in most cases is either four or six of one or both arches. The rest of the teeth still need to be retained and this is done by using removable retainers.

Great that your ortho is taking the right approach Coconut, as it would be massive shame to risk the teeth that aren't being held by the bonded retainer. Plus I like the idea that if the bonded retainer(s) should become loose, you still have your removable ones to rely on till you can get it rebonded.

If the bonded retainer become loose i.e. break or out of place, will the removable retainer fit around the teeth anymore? It sounds like the removable ones are made precisely to fit around the bonded retainer and teeth whilst the bonded ones are in place.

[Sunny]

Zach I think you need to have a good talk to your ortho as you don't seem to have a very good understanding of how retainers work ... or about relapse.

Relapse is about how your teeth stay after active treatment. You're still in treatment so it's fantastic that your teeth move easily. After treatment has finished, the teeth are no longer required to move, so after a period of full time retainer wear, your stability will be checked and at a point you will move to part time wear, once their is less risk of relapse.

You never have to be concerned about a lingual retainer if it the bonding breaks ... as long as you still wear your removable retainers as well. The bonded retainer 'impression' in your removable retainers will not affect the ability of these retainers to do this job. The advantage of the lingual retainer is that it gives your teeth better stabilty against relapse when you don't need to be wearing your removable retainers. At night you should be wearing your removable retainers for life!

Have a good talk to your ortho and get this clarified.

[lauralea]

I will be getting a bonded retainer as well after treatment, what are the pros and cons of this?

[emmie]

I've had a lingual retainer on my bottom teeth for about 5 years.. In my opinion, it is worth the minor inconvenience because even my new ortho is impressed at how straight my bottom teeth have stayed. If i end up having to get braced on the bottom again also, i will get a bottom lingual retainer again.. and would recommend it to anyone who is offered it!

[Denise]

My bottom teeth were never the issue, all of my straightening work has been on my top teeth. In fact, I haven't even gotten a new wire on my bottom teeth since 2009. Because of this, I am wondering why my orthodontist is telling me I'll need a bonded retainer on the bottom. My bottom teeth were always straight and in photos they really haven't moved hardly at all. It's my jaw that has moved.

Will a bonded retainer maintain the placement of the jaw too, or is it strictly for tooth placement? If it's strictly for tooth placement then I don't know why they'd want me to get the bonded one. I know they are a major pain....every single one of my friends who has one hates it. If there is ANY possible, human way to not get one, that's what I'll do. I'm 31 years old, so it's not like I can't be trusted to wear retainers every night. I will simply put them in as I take my contacts out, right after brushing. To me it seems so easy and simple.

[Brace Face]

I am getting bonded retainers and Essix retainers to wear at night. I've learnt alot from this thread and will definitely be raising a few questions with my ortho come the time. Thanks everyone.

[Sunny]

Denise if you really don't want a bonded retainer you're best not to have one. Your jaw can only move if you have jaw surgery, so it if looks like your jaw has moved, it's actually the teeth in your jaw bone that have moved.

We offer bonded retainers to most of our patients, due to the convenience of not having to wear a removable retainer so much. What's needed is more care when biting into anything hard (don't use the front teeth) and flossing the front teeth.

I've seen many patients come in with bonded retainers and it's great to see no movement over quite a few years. Not often the way with removable retainers ... but there are always exceptions to this rule.

[pompompadom]

Hi, after many dramas with my braces I finally was debraced yesterday and a bonded upper retainer was placed for the sum of £225. I was worried about having this done as I didnt' seem to have much space in my bite between my uppers and lowers but I was convinced it would be okay.Its not.

My bite is uncomfortable, some teeth, don' even touch and i'm hitting it with my lower teeth constantly.

What can be done?

Will I get used to it?

My ortho is an hours drive away and its difficult to get there, is there any point of trying to get there?

Thanks.

[Sunny]

Please go back to your ortho and show him what's happening. I regularly put bonded retainers on patients and their teeth never touch them when they bite, this is part of the process of putting a retainer like this in place.

Hopefully it can be bonded so that your teeth don't connect with it and then you should adjust to it quickly.

Good luck!

[Zach2k]

Please go back to your ortho and show him what's happening. I regularly put bonded retainers on patients and their teeth never touch them when they bite, this is part of the process of putting a retainer like this in place.

Hopefully it can be bonded so that your teeth don't connect with it and then you should adjust to it quickly.

Good luck!

Hmm, is this a problem if the teeth touch the retainers? I've had my retainers in for nearly a year now and my bottom teeth do touch the upper retainers when I 'bite'.

Pompompadom - I think everyone goes through feeling very weird in the first week or so after having fixed retainers put in. I felt like I had a booby trap in my mouth and wondered how I would ever get used to it, but you do get used to it.