Hi - I met with an ortho tonight who offers ligating brackets by GAC and ceramic brackets by Unitek. The difference in the footprint size AND profile between the metal vs. the ceramic was quite impressive.
Meaning the metal were so much smaller - and she actually recommended the metal for me both aesthetically and she said the metal will move my teeth faster. She said there is more friction caused with the ceramic - not sure why that slows down treatment - - but i really liked her and she comes HIGHLY recommended, as does her father also in practice with her.
For the life of me I can't locate a ligating bracket by GAC, only the Innovation self ligating brackets.
Anyone know what the ligating GAC bracket is called?
Senior Member
Hm ... I thought that the advent of metal-lined slots virtually eliminated any difference in friction between ceramic and metal brackets. (And I did think that Unitek's Clarity brackets have a metal-lined slot) Also, if otherwise similar, wider brackets, with a larger slot depth will in general generate less friction. Oh well.
If the GAC brackets are traditionally tied, rather than self-ligating, I would guess they could be Microarch, Omniarch, or Ovation. (My bet would be on the Ovation) If it's the Ovation, I wonder if she uses the NeoClip, or just regular ties.
Btw, you ask why would friction make a difference? Well, the argument is that lower friction means that the archwire can move more freely along the bracket slot, and this means that lighter wires can achieve the same results. (That said, I've also read that smaller wires mean less control.) There's a lot of hoopla about how much certain self-ligating brackets are supposed to be able to reduce friction, but there are many who argue the studies are flawed, not least because many (or all?) have been conducted in the lab, rather than in vivo.
I'll also note that friction is not always bad - there are times when it is necessary to create sufficient friction in order to achieve certain types of tooth movement.
Thanks! I sort of wondered to myself if a larger bracket would not create LESS friction myself - but I figure she has a reason for believing that ceramic work slower then metal - and I let it go at that.
As for the GAC bracket - - I thought maybe it was the micro-ovation? But they look like they might be self ligating? This was a ligating bracket - with rubber band ligatures she uses.
She showed me the arch wire she uses - - very soft and bendable, and heat activated - she told me about how you can drink something cool to help sooth the mouth after an adjustment. I have read about that.
Senior Member
As far as I am aware, the Miniovation (I don't know of a Micro-Ovation) is traditionally tied. Same for the Microarch and Omniarch.
The heat -activated wires are pretty much the norm these days for the early stages of treatment. But later in treatment I suspect you would be moved into stainless steel.
Sorry I meant Micro-ovation - it was late last night!
Hi - you were right they are Clarity by Unitek and the GAC's are micro arch.
Hi Zoso - for the life of me I can't find patient or general info on the 3M Unitek website regarding Clarity LIGATING brackets, all I find is SL or self-ligating. Any idea why?
Senior Member
Presumably they are actively trying to push the newer Clarity SL, so why market their older, traditionally tied bracket to the public, even if only through the passive means of a web site presence?
Here's a professional leaflet on the Clarity brackets:Clarity Metal-Reinforced Ceramic Brackets (pdf)
But, as I have said many times, you should not worry about the bracket brand. Just worry about whether you like the orthodontist and trust in the treatment plan that is being proposed.
Originally Posted by Zoso
Yes you may have said that before 'many' times - but that does not mean I agree with you! LOL
I DO think it is important to me to know what brand of bracket is being used. Infact the ortho last night agreed with me 100%. It goes without saying that I will choose an ortho who I trust to treat met and who I like.
But I can find lots of those! Each ortho offers different brackets and some would definitely be better for me then others. For instance - say an ortho only offers SL brackets - but the profile and side of a ligating bracket would fit far better in my mouth given it is small and i have small lips? Hence the BRAND and type of bracket will impact whom I chose most definitely!
Thks for the info on the clarity bracks. I think the company is doing itself a HUGE disservice by not continuing to promote the smaller ligating brackets, jMHO.
Senior Member
Let me ask you this:
Do you think that, even given many more weeks of exhaustive research, you are going to be able to figure out the intricacies of a Roth prescription, vs. Standard Edgewise, vs. High Torque, vs. Bioprogressive, vs. Alexander, vs. any of a number of other prescriptions?
Do you think that patients like ourselves are equipped to make a more meaningful decision that a trained orthodontist as to whether traditional ligation, active self-ligation, or passive self-ligation works best, a subject on which the trained professionals themselves are not even in agreement?
With only the limited resources available to you on the internet, are you going to be able to make a realistic assessment of the performance of the different bracket systems with regard to problems such as spontaneous debonding during treatment, breakage, or problems in debonding at the end of treatment? (I have it first-hand from an orthodontist that Damon 2 were bad for spontaneous debonding, but it's something you'd need to dig to discover online)
Do you think that, with the sort of information available to us as consumers you will be able to determine which brackets offer the most secure and robust ligation, and full, secure engagement of the archwire?
Can you even begin to figure out which manufacturer is correct in the claim that their particular bracket is the easiest to use, the most comfortable, and promotes the best and easiest oral hygiene? (Because you'll find just about every bracket makes these boasts.)
Have you figured out the friction issue in its entirety, and do you feel confident that, as a patient, you can evaluate which bracket system is going to offer the orthodontist the best in that regard?
My point here is that there are a lot of really excellent bracket systems available, and as many systems as there are, there are numerous orthodontists who use them (or they'd not still be on the market!!) These orthodontists are presumably all (or the majority of them) well-trained, and highly experienced individuals, who want to use the very best tools to treat their patients. If they cannot reach agreement which are the best brackets to use, how can we, as patients, realistically hope or imagine that we can make a meaningful choice as to which brackets are best? For that matter, is there even such a thing as the best bracket system? (I think not - I am sure all have strengths and weaknesses)
I appreciate your desire to be well-informed. But I think your focus is on totally the wrong area. Ask questions about how the case will be treated, not the specific brand of tools that will be used to render the treatment.
>Do you think that patients like ourselves are equipped to make a more meaningful decision that a trained orthodontist as to whether traditional ligation, active self-ligation, or passive self-ligation works best, a subject on which the trained professionals themselves are not even in agreement?
NOPE! Which is why what I choose is a crap shoot as it is for them. So I might as well go with comfort and esthetics - since I bet they will all work the same!
She uses the system she is comfortable with - as do all. They all work - all the orthos I am seeing are highly qualified, there is NO doubt of that.
But they all think their approach is 'best' - therefore I will choose the person/office/technique/band I like best - that seems to be a no brainer to me!
>With only the limited resources available to you on the internet, are you going to be able to make a realistic assessment of the performance of the different bracket systems with regard to problems such as spontaneous debonding during treatment, breakage, or problems in debonding at the end of treatment? (I have it first-hand from an orthodontist that Damon 2 were bad for spontaneous debonding, but it's something you'd need to dig to discover online)
NO - but I don't care about that stuff. Again that can happen with ANY system. I will put my trust in the person I choose - without a doubt. Doesn't mean I can't choose that person for a variety of reasons!
>Do you think that, with the sort of information available to us as consumers you will be able to determine which brackets offer the most secure and robust ligation, and full, secure engagement of the archwire?
The answer to that is - that it is ALL based on opinion. EVERY ortho will say his/hers is best. And every consumer will do the same based on their own experience - as you do.
>Can you even begin to figure out which manufacturer is correct in the claim that their particular bracket is the easiest to use, the most comfortable, and promotes the best and easiest oral hygiene? (Because you'll find just about every bracket makes these boasts.)
Same answer as above!
>Have you figured out the friction issue in its entirety, and do you feel confident that, as a patient, you can evaluate which bracket system is going to offer the orthodontist the best in that regard?
Same answer as above!
>My point here is that there are a lot of really excellent bracket systems available, and as many systems as there are, there are numerous orthodontists who use them (or they'd not still be on the market!!) These orthodontists are presumably all (or the majority of them) well-trained, and highly experienced individuals, who want to use the very best tools to treat their patients. If they cannot reach agreement which are the best brackets to use, how can we, as patients, realistically hope or imagine that we can make a meaningful choice as to which brackets are best? For that matter, is there even such a thing as the best bracket system? (I think not - I am sure all have strengths and weaknesses)
I AGREE 100%. THAT is my point - they are all good systems based on who you speak to! As long as I find someone I deem well qualified - again NO BRAINER, I know that the orthos I am visiting are highly qualified for a variety of reasons - - then whomever I choose is a home run! Therefore I can pick the person I like best based on the brand/treament - without cause for concern!
>I appreciate your desire to be well-informed. But I think your focus is on totally the wrong area.
That's cool - your entitled to your opinion! I just dont agree with ya!
Hey - arch wired is back up and running - isn't that GREAT!?
Senior Member
But virtually everything you say exactly does agree with me - you (agree that you) don't know enough to decide about bracket brands, and the ortho knows what works well in his or her experience.
Where we differ is that you then stop short of the final step along that path of logic, which is that ortho will use what they think best, and so it's just a question of choosing a kick-arse ortho with a kick-arse treatment plan; all the questioning and quizzing in the world about bracket brand A and bracket brand B is a red herring, an irrelevancy. Trust the ortho you choose to choose what's best for you! Focus on the ortho, focus on the treatment plan.
And that's the one thing I have not seen in any of your posts: any discussion of what your diagnosis is, and how the different doctors have proposed to address these issues. That's the big deal.
Senior Member
What makes you think Clarity are smaller than Clarity SL, by the way? They are practically identical! The only difference is that the SL backets have tiny little "fingers" to either side of the bracket, that the archwire is popped into.
And remember: smaller is not necessarily better - brackets are, in effect, levers that transfer the forces from the archwire to the teeth. When they are very small, this can sometimes make it harder to induce certain types of movement. The bracket manufacturers tout smaller as an advantage, knowing that patients will automatically latch onto such an assertion - why, if they are smaller, they will be less visible, and will surely be more comfortable! (The latter is debatable, of course.) This is just another example of why the whole idea of the patient trying to choose one bracket brand from another is a positive minefield.
Uhhhh - are you the only person on this board or what? I'm not replying to your constant questions anymore. I've looked back in the archives and it seems you make it a habit and or enjoy wrangling and cross questioning people and your not even a doctor! You really should qualify yourself after every single post you make and mention you are NOT a medical professional and that this is ONLY your opinion! Otherwise I fear you might get slammed with a lawsuit some day - be careful, there are a lot of people on the internet who threaten such things, it is a very lawsuit crazed world we live in.
Take care - I'm going to bow out of these 'discussions' with you now. LOL
GOOD LORD SHUT UP ALREADY!!
Ahhhh that felt SO good!!!
Senior Member
Oh pardon me the heck for wasting my time trying to answser YOUR questions! Who's been trying to help whom here? Talk about an ingrate. Man, just because you don't like some of my advice you go all ***** on me. But fine - carry on agonising about bracket types, for all the good it will do you in the end (none at all). What a waste of time.
Reminder: YOU specifically asked for MY help.
And btw:
When did I ever tout one particular bracket system over another? I've said fromt he very get-go that the ortho is the important factor - something you vehemently agreed with above. It's you who has this apparently insatiable need to analyse the brackets your potential ortho is using. Why? Why this need if, as you say, you will trust their judgement??The answer to that is - that it is ALL based on opinion. EVERY ortho will say his/hers is best. And every consumer will do the same based on their own experience - as you do.
Last edited by Zoso; 01-23-2009 at 08:19 PM.
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